[00:00:01] Speaker A: You're tuning into Salon Era, a series from Les Delices that brings together musicians from around the world to share music stories and scholarship with a global audience of early music lovers. I'm Deborah Nagy, and this is the second episode of our fifth season, East Meets West.
In this episode, we're shining a light on artists doing fascinating work that centers cultural exchange. Recorder players Daphne Moore and Nina Stern originally met playing Bach only to discover their shared love and curiosity for non Western musics.
That led them to form the ensemble east of the river, whose work with specialist collaborators over the past 20 years has seen them explore diverse musical traditions from the Middle East, North Africa, the Balkans, Armenia, West Africa and beyond.
We'll also talk with Indian American soprano Vidita Kaniks and Thai American violinist Salini Amawat, whose recent collaboration east is east with Infusion Baroque thoughtfully bridges both time and traditions.
Along the way, we'll open our minds and our ears to appreciating how instruments like recorders, baroque, violin, or harpsichord can adapt and find a place in traditional or non Western music. And we'll talk about the crucial role that collaborators play in helping to program and shape culturally respectful and responsive performances.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: Nina Daphna, welcome to Solanira. I'm thrilled to talk to you for this episode called East Meets West. You have been the force behind this amazing ensemble, which I understand is almost 20 years old, called east of the River.
Congratulations.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: And can you talk to us about the origins and the mission of your group?
[00:02:06] Speaker C: Thank you so much for having us. Deborah, Daphna and I actually met over 20 years ago. At this point, we were playing a fourth Brandenburg concerto together and had a long drive from New York City to Pennsylvania on which, I mean, we literally didn't know each other yet, in which we really got to know each other and discovered quickly a shared love of music outside of Western classical early music. One thing led to another and we began. We were each exploring music from different cultures for our own reasons. In my case, it was related work that I was doing in education and also just a personal love for listening to music from the Middle east, from Western Africa.
[00:03:04] Speaker D: It's so fun to think about that trip to Delaware because it was really of an incredible partnership. Now I can say lifelong partnership. Which brings me to the idea of when you're asking, what is the mission? The first word that comes comes to mind is friendship.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Nina mentioned musics from the Middle east and West Africa.
What is the range of cultural traditions or musics that you have explored with east of the River?
[00:03:35] Speaker C: It's really quite wide. I mean, we started off with a project. I think actually our first project was more Eastern European, more centered around Balkan music. We've also explored to a great degree Armenian music from North Africa, from the Middle East, Turkish, Ottoman music.
What am I? Well, Sephardic music, of course.
[00:04:02] Speaker D: Yeah, that's the latest album, in a way.
[00:04:06] Speaker C: Music that in my mind, sort of emanates from the Mediterranean basin, but extends outward. I mean, we were always.
From the very beginning, I think the idea was really west meets East. And we were asked why that name? You know, of course it is the east river, because at the time all the members of the group were living in Brooklyn. But also, if we had to choose another river, it would probably, or possibly be the Danube, east of where our training based us, really, and just looking eastward from there.
[00:04:52] Speaker D: So I grew up in Israel, and being part of the Middle East, I've always been fascinated by the culture and the music of my region.
But my studies were Western classical music, recorder, early music. And it is really when I moved to New York after studying in Boston that I moved to New York that I found the time to dive into classical Arabic music. And so I studied with master Ne player, Oud player, musician, Bassam Saba. With Bassam, I did what we call the west in the Western classical tradition of going to lessons and studying with Rashid Halihal, who's a master in Andalusian Moroccan music. I did the kind of like another. Another kind of what we call studies, which is that you're just thrown in. You just start playing with a master and find yourself very early and unprepared in big performances. But there is this kind of like, different way of studying. So that is how I've. I've studied Moroccan music.
[00:06:01] Speaker C: I think I fell in love with the recorder in third grade in my. In my class, like we. We all had recorder in third grade. And I became an early music geek quite, quite early on. Then ultimately I went to Basel to study at the Scola Cantorum at a pretty young age. I left the States when I was 19 and went over there and did my degree there. I ended up living in Europe for almost 10 years.
As I said before, I started becoming interested in music from different parts of the world through my own exploration and through explorations of. In my educational endeavors. And quickly found that in New York there are experts with whom I could study. So I studied with incredible Israeli clarinetist and saxophonist Harel Shahel. So this was, you know, I was now already. I myself had been teaching at conservatories for years.
But I went back and really studied this music, Middle Eastern music, but and also how to improvise in that music. I learned an enormous amount from an Armenian musician that we have collaborated with at east of the River, Aradinkan, who's just a master of Armenian music. I feel incredibly lucky to have had the opportunity to collaborate with these musicians to learn from them, and they have generously said that they have learned from me as well.
[00:07:46] Speaker B: Well, we are excited next to feature a recent performance, recorded performance of Ija Mia, which is also the name of your most recent album with east of the River. Can you introduce this for us?
[00:08:00] Speaker D: Yeah. We are so excited about this recording. It has been many years in thinking and in the making. Ijamia means my daughter in Ladino, the Judeo Sephardic language. In this album we're exploring Sephardic folk music as well as liturgical Sephardic music from the Ottoman Empire and also North Africa and classical Ottoman music as well.
So the song is a silly song that's actually one of the folk songs about a mother trying to marry her daughter and offering all these potential husb which the daughter rejects. And at the end, like in every good story, she chooses the one person that the mom just kind of like left us as a leftover idea, which is the drunk guy. So that is the story. We do have though, a beautiful introduction in the classical Arabic tradition, and that was composed by our other phenomenal musician that plays with us, Kane Mathis. So I hope you enjoy Ijamia SA Foreign.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to today's episode of Solanira, which features performances shared with us by Salini Amawat, Vidita Kaniks and Infusion Baroque, as well as from Daphne Moore and Nina Stern's ensemble East of the River.
In a moment, we'll return to our conversation with Vidita and Salini, but in the meantime, I hope you'll consider making a tax deductible gift in support of Selanira. With your support, we can continue to collaborate with engaging guests from across the country and around the world. You can support Salonira by subscribing to this podcast and by
[email protected] your donations make every episode possible. Thanks again for supporting Le Dlice and Solanira by listening and subscribing to this podcast.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Welcome Selene. Welcome Vidita. It's great to have you here on Ceylon, Ira.
[00:13:27] Speaker E: Thank you. It's wonderful to be here.
[00:13:31] Speaker B: And the two of you collaborated on a new CD recording project with Infusion Baroque, Salini's ensemble in Quebec, Montreal, which features you, Vidita, and it's called East Is East. Can you explain your choice of the title? East is East?
[00:13:51] Speaker F: East is east is a project that actually originated several years ago in a concert that Infusion Broke performed in Montreal called East Meets West. What we were doing during that whole season of concerts actually is exploring how outside cultural influences made their way into European Baroque music. And this particular concert focused on certain Eastern influences. And we were left with a feeling of, you know, maybe this wasn't. Wasn't a great idea. You know, it didn't really feel quite, quite right just because, you know, there was. Other than Tidal, there wasn't a lot of Eastern influence, like, really authentic Eastern influence in a lot of the music that we were performing. However, it was a really fun program and we really loved the idea of exploring this vein of music. So we decided, okay, we're going to revamp, reboot the whole program and make it a collaboration between Infusion Baroque and artists that really have a real grounding in these different types of Eastern musical cultures. And so East Meets west became East Is east, because rather than appropriating Eastern music, it really is truly coming from the source through the authenticity of artists such as Vedita and our other collaborator, Amir Amiri. The title east is east comes from the first stanza of the Rudyard Kipling poem the Ballad of East and West. And I don't have the whole stanza memorized, but the first line is, oh, east is east and west is west, and never the twain shall meet. But the stanza goes on to say that these two cultures are equal when it comes time to meet God.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: What is the music that comes together on this album?
[00:15:45] Speaker F: The album is a balance between music that is really based in the Western baroque world, and there is music that has roots in Indian classical music and music that has roots in classical Persian music. We really wanted to make it, like I said before, like an equal meeting. Everybody is on equal ground. Vidita curated a portion of the program and. And Amir has his own set. And then Infusion broke. You know, we have our own representation there as well.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: How did you choose or prioritize your collaborators?
[00:16:27] Speaker F: Amir Amiri is somebody that we knew. He's also based in Montreal, and we know Katita from McGill. She was the perfect person to approach for this type of project.
[00:16:39] Speaker E: So I obviously was delighted to be approached about this project because, you know, in the Western music world, I felt like I had to succeed based on the parameters that were defined in that academic world or in the standard repertory, sorry, that we know people are curious and willing to explore what there is beyond the Western classical canon. And so that kind of receptiveness was something that I was really excited about. And Infusion broke, of course, was very graceful and open about bouncing ideas back and forth and the kind of possibilities.
[00:17:25] Speaker B: So let's sample some music from east is East. The first recording that we're going to share is called Cortege. I wonder if one of you could introduce this.
[00:17:37] Speaker F: Cortege is an original composition by Amir Amiri, one of our collaborators, who is a composer and a wonderful Santour player. The Santour is the sort of Persian version of the Hammer Dulcimer. And this piece is one that he originally composed for his Persian ensemble and that he arranged to include Western instruments. And the name translates to a funeral procession. And it is quite literally about death and all the facets and. And experience that one goes through when mourning. The piece starts out with a sort of somber introduction that has Vegeta actually singing a text that's based on a Persian childhood rhyme, which is a play on the word shir, which means both milk and lion. And this reference to milk is sort of a nod to birth and the relationship with the mother. This section transitions into a very, very sort of fast paced B section, which is all about grief, you know, but at the same time it's quite celebratory as well. And the two sections are bridged by a cadenza that takes quotes from the Devil's Chill Sonata by Tartini.
[00:18:52] Speaker B: So let's take a moment and enjoy. Cortege from recording sessions of east is EAS.
[00:24:06] Speaker C: Sa.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: Welcome back and what a beautiful recording. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. Vegeta, I would love to hear more about your background musically, which you just kind of referenced in passing a few moments ago, and to learn more about how Carnatic and Western classical traditions have interfaced in your own lived experience.
[00:25:45] Speaker E: I have had the absolute privilege of growing up totally immersed in both Indian and Western traditions. When it comes to Western classical music, I would say my journey is similar to, that of, you know, many musicians that we know, our colleagues, our peers, et cetera. But when it comes to Indian music, especially growing up in the United States, I would say it's rare to have had an experience like mine. And my extended family and my own father and my maternal grandmother are professional musicians as well.
My mom is a veena player. It's a stringed instrument in the Kanadic tradition. And Even my great grandfather was a musician as well. On my maternal side. In the Indian classical tradition, you have this concept called the Guru Shishya parampara. Guru meaning teacher, shishya meaning student, and parampara meaning lineage. And there's a lot of importance or style that's accredited to the lineage from which you've learned. And I almost feel as though, you know, being able to grow up with my dad and also having months at a time with my grandmother, having lessons almost like on a daily basis, or hearing her teach, or hearing my parents teach, it's almost felt like that authentic experience that one might have had had they committed their life to the Guru Shishya relationship in India. I think my voice, in terms of what I have to offer, although it has been influenced by my family, I think it's still pretty different because I'm able to go even more niche, I guess, into aspects of Baroque music that I now know about through my education and vocal techniques, specifically that I'm able to relate from one style to the other.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: So I'm curious, with this very special collaboration between Western artists playing on period instruments with infusion Baroque, how you all kind of met in the middle stylistically, technically, and or any other way that seems salient to talk about.
[00:27:56] Speaker E: I think I started to make this connection or draw the lines between Indian classical and earlier Baroque music initially because I started to recognize how I learned and thought about music in the first place due to my background. And it was so orally informed. And so much of the expression behind it is rooted in ornamentation and the virtuosity that lives in that. I mean, I think that's what drew me to early music in the first place, and the fact that there are individual textures that are equally important. It's not so much a wall of sound as you get in traditional choral or symphonic polyphony. And it almost reminds me of a Hindustani or a Carnatic instrumental ensemble, where everybody is just kind of jiving and riffing off of one another. Everyone is a bit of a soloist in their own way. So with that in mind, I think this ensemble actually lent itself perfectly to this.
[00:28:59] Speaker F: Well, I'm very. I'm very glad that Vidita felt like we, like it was a seamless experience, and from our perspective. Yes, I mean, of course, in many ways it was. And I think a lot of it also had to do with Vegeta's own understanding of, you know, how to translate this music to a Western ensemble. And so, yeah, I mean, it was really interesting to see how, although the music is very different, there's so much that we can relate to as well.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: Can you introduce the next set of pieces?
[00:29:31] Speaker E: Vidita, the next set, it's a bit of a freely improvised little mantra, a Sanskrit prayer, followed by a large ensemble piece. So Deepa Jyoti is the Sanskrit prayer. It is meant to evoke the peace and the spiritual nature of the lamp. So lighting a lamp for prayer in the evening. The deepa literally means lamp. It can be, you know, associated with Hindu prayer. But I feel like it's a bit of a universal prayer. If you really look at the text and it sets the tone for the following ensemble piece, Sandhya Raga.
Sandhyaraga itself is far more composed. There's so much rhythmic fun, like sort of textures in there.
It sort of zips along. The first section is a little bit slower, but it builds up into a final crescendo where there's just so much momentum going and going until the end. I think it's. It's an absolute masterpiece in evoking this raga, and I really hope that you all love it as much as I do.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Mo.
[00:38:59] Speaker B: Welcome back Daphna and Nina, and thank you for sharing this beautiful work that you've been doing over now almost 20 years with east of the River. And we started this program by talking about and enjoying Ijamia. And you mentioned a few of the collaborators on that album. And as we also talked about the range of repertoire that east of the river has cultivated and explored over the years. What different factors have guided your choices about programming or collaborators over this period of time?
[00:39:34] Speaker C: Well, I think I mentioned earlier just the fact that there's such a wealth of musical life here in New York City, and we've just been incredibly lucky to work with masters of Armenian music or of west of Kora music that live in New York City. Sometimes we've actually become interested in other traditions through collaborating with a musician. So the kora, the music of West Africa, is an example because our oud player, Caine Mathis, is also an expert kora player.
[00:40:18] Speaker B: Since we're talking about collaborations, what advice do you have given your extensive experience for creating really compelling and culturally sensitive programs of the sort that we've been.
[00:40:32] Speaker D: Talking about, we always make sure that in any collaborations and any traditions that we represent or cross represent with other traditions, we have an expert of that tradition in the mix of the. Of the ensemble. And so. And they become kind of like the. I wouldn't say authority, because it is really kind of like A lot of democracy, but like respectful representation of we do find which is really beautiful is that once you collaborate with people from traditions representing the generosity that comes and the joy of music making that comes from actually what. What is created through the project frees us. So that, that is the first thing that I would say. Just choosing the right musicians and giving complete freedom and agency for the people who are representing their own tradition.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: Your term agency, give and giving agency actually made me wonder to what extent collaborators are also involved in programming and.
[00:41:40] Speaker C: Not just in rehearsal and performance throughout the entire process. I would say yeah. I would just like to add to what Daphna said. We really have always thought of what we are doing as a living tradition. Whether we're playing a medieval estampille, an Italian 14th century estampi or.
Or an ancient Armenian chant, we're internalizing the music and. And then expressing it through our instruments.
[00:42:18] Speaker D: But we did do the work. I that that's what important to say we've done, we've walked the walk, we do the work, we've studied, we collaborate, listen. And then now there is this kind of like mutual trust of working with the material.
[00:42:36] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: I think those are all great points and great observations. I love it. You've hinted a couple of times about presenters or other folks wanting to put east of the river in a box of some kind. And I totally understand that and I understand how that happens. But I'm curious how attitudes or reception to your ensembles work have evolved over time.
[00:43:02] Speaker C: I think they've evolved tremendously. So I mean the story that we always tell, when we were first starting out, we were concentrating on Balkan music, on music of Eastern Europe and we included an accordion in our ensemble because accordion of course is a main instrument of that music. They were saying, well, accordion. I don't know when exactly was the accordion invented? Can we call this early music?
[00:43:30] Speaker D: We wouldn't have problems with it outside of the early music, but within the early music there is also could be something very nice to have like a sub kind of like category where early music instruments and musicians collaborate with others. There was just no category in that which we're so excited that has changed.
[00:43:53] Speaker C: Oh, it's changed tremendously. In fact, it's not only diversity of personnel, it's diversity of repertory in order for our field to have a more inclusive audience. Audience as well.
[00:44:05] Speaker B: Right, right. And to offer recognition to other histories. This is old music. This does have, you know, incredibly long.
[00:44:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: Deep roots.
[00:44:16] Speaker C: There are many classical musics. Right. Not only Western classical music. For example, I Mean, that's a, that's a term that, that has changed over time.
[00:44:26] Speaker D: And I think us as, you know, as teachers and as observers and admirers of all the young ensembles who which are coming up, it just makes us so happy to see people bring their own tradition out proudly and exploring a lot of us.
I know that it is about even my generation, a lot of people have suppressed their own background and their own culture. Re exploring that is just a very, very exciting thing in music and in humanity in general. But just the curiosity and the flexibility of the younger generation of early music in all their way that they're. They are expressing themselves is just very exciting and very makes us very hopeful.
[00:45:16] Speaker C: It's. It's all fantastic. It's all part of a. Of a living tradition and it's exciting.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: You mentioned Cain Mathis a few moments ago and Kane has been a guest on this series Solanira back when we did an episode about Ottoman music.
He is a oud player, as you mentioned, but also, as I think Nina mentioned, studied korra in West Africa. And the next piece that we're going to listen to that you shared with us is a pre pandemic performance of the ensemble performing a piece called Jarabi. And can you introduce this for us?
[00:45:59] Speaker C: Jarabi is one, I think, you know, one of the most well known pieces of music in that part of the world.
If you listen to any of the incredible chora players that have come out of the Gambia and Mali and other countries in that region, they almost all have a version of Jarabi. It's an absolutely gorgeous tune.
And we, Kane made an arrangement of the piece for our ensemble. For the two recorders and percussion.
[00:46:42] Speaker D: And percussion, we have John Hedfield, another phenomenal percussionist, playing.
But then after we've practiced Jarabi and Kane's arrangement was so beautiful, suddenly Nina was like, oh my God, this makes me feel like I want to insert something.
[00:47:01] Speaker C: Yeah, what did I insert again? The macho duced. Right. Kane was like, yeah, go for it.
[00:47:08] Speaker B: The sound is so beguiling and so, I mean to an early music, you know, to someone who's ears and brain are steeped in the western classical tradition.
Surprising and extremely moving and as well as joyous. So I'm very happy to that you suggested to share this with us.
[00:49:49] Speaker C: SA SA.
[00:54:41] Speaker A: Tune in on February 10, 2025 for the premiere of Enterprising Women.
[00:54:47] Speaker B: A new episode from Solan era that.
[00:54:49] Speaker A: Shines a light on two women composer performers from mid 18th century London. Elizabeth Turner and Elisabetta De Gambarini.
Produced in collaboration with Langer Initiative, a research and advocacy organization promoting music by women across all time periods, this episode features new world premiere recordings by Les Delices of select songs by Turner and Gambarini, plus live performance performances of Turner's harpsichord lessons by scholar performer Paula Maust.
We're also joined by Alison Desimone for a fascinating conversation that will expand our understanding of the roles women played in the creation, performance and consumption of 18th century.
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Selanira. This episode was created by ME Executive Producer Deborah Nagy, Associate Producer Shelby Yaman and Hannah DePriest, our scriptwriter and Special Projects manager. Our guests were Artistic Directors of East of the River, Daphne Moore and Nina Stern, and violinist Celine Amawat of Quebec's Infusion Baroque and soprano Vedita Kanix.
Support for Solanira is provided by the National Endowment for the Arts, Cuyahoga Arts and Culture, the Ohio Arts Council, and audience members like you. Special thanks to Drs. Joseph Sopko and Betsy McIntyre for sponsorship of this episode and to Solanura's season sponsors Deborah Malachi, Tom and Marilyn McLaughlin, and Greg Nosen and Brandon Rood. This episode featured musical performances by east the river and infusion baroque. A one hour filmed version of this episode is available on salonira.org where you can also get full performance details and learn more about the music and information shared in this and any episode. Please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It was really helps the show.
