Nov. 13: Shipwreck!

[00:00:01] Speaker A: You're Tuning into Solan era, a series from delice that brings together musicians from around the world to share music, stories, and scholarship with a global audience of early music lovers. I'm Deborah Nagy, and this is the second episode of our fourth season, Shipwreck. This episode centers on Henry VI's flagship Ship, the Mary Rose, which sank in 1545. The ship's history roughly parallels Henry VI's reign, from his youthful dalliances and early forays into international politics, that is, alternating wars with peace to more serious national and international conflicts that were ignited by Henry VI's divorce from Catherine of Aragon and subsequent rift with the Catholic Church in Rome. Completed in 1511, the Mary Rose was a state of the art worship, complete with six to eight large gunports, and she met with victory in early boughs, with France and in Scotland. She also proudly represented Henry VI in peacetime, escorting him to France for the meeting of the field of the Cloth of Gold in 1520. By the early 1530s, however, tensions with Europe resulting from Henry's break from the church in Rome meant that England and her navy needed to be ready for war. Extra gunports were added to the Mary Rose, with the sides of the ship strengthened to accommodate the extra weight. But on Sunday, July 19, 1545, Henry VI watched from the shore as the Mary Rose sank during the Battle of the Solent, a confrontation between French and English troops. The ship's demise remains something of a mystery, but the only confirmed eyewitness, a Flemish sailor who escaped the sinking vessel, claimed that the Mary Rose had fired all of her guns on one side and was turning when her sails were caught in a strong gust of wind that pushed the still open gunports below the waterline. Water flooded in, and only a few dozen of the then 500 men survived. The Mary Rose sat at the bottom of the English Channel for hundreds of years. Despite many attempts to recover her. Each was unsuccessful until 1982, when she was finally exhumed, along with over 19,000 objects from the period. Among the fines that came up with a Mary Rose was a chest full of instruments. Included were pieces of two small, boxy Vietnas, or fiddles, several three hole tabor pipes, and the first dusen that had survived the modern era. Previously, the soft, sweet sounding Ducenne, also called a still sham by the English, was known only through descriptions. I was honored to be involved in a special program that told the ship's story through music created by multi instrumentalists and singer Alison Monroe and her medieval ensemble Trobar. In May 2023. All the musical selections in tonight's episode are drawn from the May 6 performance in Cleveland, Ohio. With Trobar in the middle of our run of performances, I had a chance to speak with Allison about her inspiration for the program, her instruments modeled after those on the Mary Rose, and how she brought together diverse sources to imaginatively reconstruct instrumental music, songs, and even seashanties as they might have been heard on board or adjacent to the Mary Rose. We also talked with baritone storyteller and multi instrumentalist Peter Walker, who told much of the ship's story through readings drawn from Edward Hall's Chronicle. In addition to historic bagpipe tunes that evoke the Mary Rose's early battles in Scotland, this project proved to be so special and fascinating, and I'm proud to. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Highlight the work of Trobar in this episode. [00:04:20] Speaker A: We'll dig into Henry VI and the Mary Rose in a moment, but now. [00:04:25] Speaker B: I encourage you to sit back and. [00:04:27] Speaker A: Enjoy a little of Henry VI's own pastime with good company and the Ballad of Robin Hood as arranged by Alison Monroe after Trolley Lolly Low by William Cornish Past I wish. [00:04:43] Speaker C: I know and this trust me, only know. Sing from My Love is to the remote Sing from love. [00:06:10] Speaker D: And listen, gentlemen Hurricane what I shall say a proud sheriff of Nottingham did cry a full fair play that all the best archers of the north should come upon the day and that shot at all their best the game should bear away. [00:06:31] Speaker C: Singo that shotth all their best furthest fair and low. [00:06:43] Speaker D: At a pair of finely butts under the Greenwood shore a right good arrow he shall have the shaft of silver white the head and feathers of Rick's red gold in England is none like. [00:06:59] Speaker C: Singular under his crystal tree. [00:07:11] Speaker D: Make ye ready, my white young men, that shooting will I see Busky. My merry young men ye shall go with me and I will wet the sheriff's faith true, and if he be sing. When they came to Nottingham the butts were fair and long many was the bald archer that shutted with war strong. Thrice Robin shot about and always missed the wand unsworded good Gilbert with the Hawaii hand little John and good scade lock were archers good and free little mooch and good Reynold the worst Would they not be when they had shot about these archer her spare and good evermore was the best forsource Robin Hood. [00:08:30] Speaker C: Mine always to the dream would go now after when I go sing love. You know. [00:08:46] Speaker B: Allison, it has been so great to work with you in your it feels like a magnum opus creation of the Mary Rose program with Trabar. [00:08:59] Speaker A: Just this past week and wondered if. [00:09:01] Speaker B: You could talk to me about what inspired you to create this program. [00:09:05] Speaker E: Yeah, well, I first learned about the Mary Rose because I think it was while I was studying at case read about the ducen. What is this bizarre instrument? And the Mary Rose is very important to descend history, as you could explain, better than I can. But essentially we know that it exists. It appears in contemporaneous literature, but we had no examples. And it wasn't until the Mary Rose was pulled up off the ocean floor in 1982 they discovered all these things, including a chest of instruments which had this instrument that matched the descriptions of the dusen. And it was the first time that we had any idea of what a Dusen might actually be. And all of the copies that you and anyone else in the world plays are copies of that instrument. [00:09:53] Speaker B: So that's cool and everything, right? I will agree with you entirely that the descent is interesting, and it was so great to have one in the world in some shape and form. But that's not your instrument. [00:10:06] Speaker E: No, it is not. So I got excited when I then went on and read about the Mary Rose and learned that there were other instruments on the ship, including some pieces of VLS. And those are some of the earliest pieces of VLs that we have. And when I say pieces, they were probably whole when it went down. And many hundreds of years later, they are no longer whole, and we're missing bits. So there's a lot of guesswork that has to happen. And different makers who have copied them have come to slightly different conclusions about what they might be. I had been aware of this instrument, but I had never seen a copy of it until I was purchasing my very first VL. I went to go pick it up from John Pringle, North Carolina, and he was like, hang on. And he ran upstairs, came back with this other case, and he was like, here, take this. I was like, take this. What do you mean? And he was like, my wife is tired of being under our, you know, in VL storage. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Everybody has. [00:11:07] Speaker E: Yeah. Under his bed. And I open it up, and there it is, this funny square instrument. That's a copy of the Mary Rose VL. And so we talked about it a little bit, and he was showing me, there's some pictures from around the same time in. I believe it's a French tapestry from in the middle of the 16th century that also has a square instrument. And that particular one has three strings. You can see three pegs and three strings. And he had experimented with five strings originally and it did not work. It was just too tight, too narrow. And so he ended up going to a three string model, and that's what he gave me. And so I've just had it all these years, and I've brought it out occasionally and tried to figure out what to do with it. But it's a funky little animal. [00:11:55] Speaker B: So what is so unusual? What makes this instrument funky, per se? And do we have any indication from the fragments that are left, maybe how. [00:12:05] Speaker E: Many strings it might have had from the fragments? No, it's just a matter of the size, which not even everyone agrees on. So I Played two different copies in this performance this past weekend. The other one was by Kate McWilliams from unprofitable instruments, and hers is smaller. And I believe that's because they came to slightly different conclusions about how the wood might have shrunk over time being underwater. But both the instruments are three string because neither one can really accommodate more than that. Just given the size, that's really the only indication. We don't have a bridge, we don't have a nut. I think we have a partial neck from one of them. So there's a lot that has to be sort of guessed at. But because of the squareness which appears in both fragments from both instruments, it's a really unique timbre. And by unique, I mean maybe not everyone's cup of tea. [00:13:05] Speaker B: Buzzy and scratchy. [00:13:06] Speaker E: Buzzy and a bit scratchy. And the little one is very high and very nasal. It's an acquired taste, I guess I would say. And because it's only three string and most feels are four or five string, it also just limits your options of what you can play. [00:13:23] Speaker B: When we think about the instruments that came up with the Mary Rose in the 1980s, I mean, when I think about it, I realize actually they're special, but they're all pretty limited in their own way. The ducen is a bass instrument, and the ducen has a very limited range. Sort of unusual thing. The VLs are small and nasal and buzzy. Not entirely, and only perhaps accommodating. Three strings have some limitations, clearly, maybe not a polyphony instrument. And the other wind instruments are taper pipes, little three hole pipes. So that makes us, if we think about the sights and sounds of what's happening on that ship, it might be pretty rustic dance music. [00:14:15] Speaker E: Yeah. And probably a lot of unison, which is what we ended up doing. Right. We sort of tried a variety of things. It was kind of an experimental. We didn't ever come to anything with Dusen and Viel that were playing dance music together. I don't know, it's just a little bit hard to imagine the ducenne playing dance music, but maybe. [00:14:37] Speaker B: I don't know. I mean, I think that maybe that bass instrument would have been functioning really either as a kind of drone or prototynas or whatever. [00:14:52] Speaker E: Right. And we didn't have a bass, so that's also partially why we didn't come to that conclusion. But, yeah, it was all a bit of an experiment. [00:15:00] Speaker B: Right. So instruments in this program were definitely an inspiration and in certain ways a source informing what music was on the program. But I know that you brought together an enormous quantity and a real interesting variety of sources to build this program, from the music to the text and creating contrafacta and all sorts of different stuff. And I wondered if you could speak to perhaps some of the most interesting sources that you brought to bear in creating the program, and possibly some that we might not think of as the first place to go when you're thinking about music from Henry VI's court. [00:15:47] Speaker E: Yeah. So the first source that everyone thinks of Henry VI's book, which, of course, is hugely valuable, and especially if you're going to look at non sacred music in this era, that is really the main source. And then there are all these little tiny bits of evidence in other places, which I relied a lot on music for Elizabeth and Lutz, which is this amazing resource that has all of this repertoire, mainly from the time of Elizabeth. But then there are little hints of what might have been going on before. And, for example, there are just, like, some little bits of melody that are written into a few manuscripts, such as Royal App 58, one of my favorites, Royal Appendix app, not like app, like on your phone, Royal App 58, which has just some really useful little bits of melodies here and there that seem to be from an earlier time. So the rest of the sources, basically, that I was looking at are text sources, and the idea of sort of collecting texts is really important at this era. So two of the manuscripts that I spent some time with are the Devonshire manuscript, which is a really cool manuscript, and the other one is Richard Hill's commonplace book. Both of these are collections just by normal amateur people. They're not musicians. So the Devonshire manuscript, as far as we know, belonged to women and was compiled by women who were at the court of Anne Boleyn and a little bit after. So they were very young. I think the youngest of these three particular women that seem to have been writing, most of them was, like, 17. These are very young. The oldest was like 21. So very young women, they're just collecting the poems that they like and they're notating into it. Also, like, this one is to sing, or I like this one. Or they put these little funny symbols next to some of them that we don't know totally what they mean. So it's very much a book that's like, in use. A lot of the poetry that I ended up drawing from was from that book, including hey Robin, Jolly Robin, including oh Happy Dames, including Blame Not My Loot. It's this really fascinating source that is specifically connected with women. And then the other one I talked about is Richard Hill's commonplace book, which, if you have a moment, check it out online. You can see the whole thing. Fascinating. Just whatever he thought was interesting. So there's like riddles, there's poetry, there's carols, there's recipes, there's lists of random things. And he has his own chronicle in the back of everything that he remembers from his lifetime living in London. And so we drew a few readings from that, him describing what he remembers happening around the time of Anne Boleyn's coronation, around when all these people are being beheaded as religious turmoil is really bubbling. So we didn't end up doing any of the songs from his book, but we did some readings from his Chronicle. [00:19:10] Speaker B: Well, the next thing that we're going. [00:19:11] Speaker A: To hear in the course of our. [00:19:13] Speaker B: Episode is some dance music with Pipe and with one of the Mary Rose VLs. And then we're going to move on to some of the so called consorts in Henry VI's book, which are often really short, sort of inscrutable pieces, but I think really fun and actually probably some of the most compelling performances of those really unusual little works that are sprinkled throughout. So let's listen. [00:20:12] Speaker C: Sam Dam Sam Sam. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Support for Salon era comes from our listeners. Donate, learn more about Salon era membership and sign up for our mailing [email protected]. [00:23:36] Speaker B: Peter, it's been so great to work on this Mary Rose project together. And what is your role in the project? [00:23:46] Speaker F: Well, it's been great to work with you as well, Deborah. And my roles in this project are somewhat varied. I get to narrate the story, I get to play a couple of different bagpipes, and I get to play not one, but two harps and sing repertoire ranging from Tudor polyphony to seashanties to loot songs. So it's a bit of a variety show, but in the best possible way. [00:24:11] Speaker B: I really do. I think exactly the same thing. It feels like a variety show in the best possible way. I can't actually believe how much variety there is. And we'll get to talk a little bit more about that as well. But I wanted to talk first about your role as a piper in this program. [00:24:30] Speaker F: We've got three pipe tunes in total on the program, and the two on the first half are the ones connected with the Battle of Flauden and those I suggested to Allison. She had written a bit about Flauden, and the two tunes that I'm playing around the Battle of Flauden are traditionally associated with it. One is called Terebus or Terebus Iteriadon. No one's quite sure what the name means, but it's traditionally associated with the soldiers from Hawk who fought at Flauden and is still played by their town band every year. That's a tune that's still a favorite with Highland pipe bands the world over. I think the other tune associated with Flauden is the flowers of the forest. Now, the flowers of the forest is a tune that you might know from 18th century sources. There's a lovely tune and a beautiful set of words, which, as far as we can tell, probably come from the 18th century, but the phrase the flowers of the forest for the Scots killed at Flauden is one that goes back a very long way. So with that Connection, I wanted to find the earliest version of flowers of the forest that I could track down, and I found it in the Skein manuscript, which is a book from the early part of the 17th century for the Mandora, a very small, loot like instrument. And there's a version of the flowers of the forest in that manuscript. So that's the one that I play. [00:26:01] Speaker B: Cool. So, getting as close as we can to the 15 teens or so, are there any other issues or ways that you think about trying to recover historical tunes when maybe the original sources are 100, 150, maybe even 250 years post, when we think they were kind of part of the musical ether? [00:26:27] Speaker F: Yes, that's an unfortunately rather common problem with the piping repertoire especially. There was a little bit of music printed for the Musette in the 17th century, but otherwise we don't really have music written down for the bagpipe in Europe that I'm aware of, and definitely not in the British Isles before about the middle of the 18th century, somewhere around 1745 or so. This means that to reach back any further, we have to lean heavily on the tradition, which, luckily, the Highlands of Scotland are home to a rather conservative piping tradition that, until the 20th century does not seem to have been given to quick changes. So we can extrapolate from a traditional reference to a tune that it may be the same tune as was played at this historical event, or at least hopefully bears some resemblance to it. [00:27:31] Speaker B: And what are the pipes, actually, that you're playing in this performance? [00:27:37] Speaker F: So I'm afraid this gets us into another round of speculation. We don't have any surviving pipe music from this period, and we don't have any surviving instruments that are complete and playable, of course. So we need to find a way to make something that's historically plausible and will play the music that we want to play it on. So I'm using two different instruments. The one that I'm playing on the first half for Terabus and the flowers of the forest is a replica medieval Renaissance bagpipe. So it's based on period depictions of medieval and Renaissance pipes and the tuning and scale that it plays. The fingering system is essentially something that the designer of the instrument decided would be useful for what we want to do. So it's roughly fingered, like a recorder or something. Based on the depictions that we have, we can pretty conclusively say that the bagpipes of Henry VI's day had two drones, a long one and a short one. The modern Highland bagpipe has three drones, a long one and two short ones. So I'm playing one that only has the two. It's a slightly gentler, softer drone sound. You can apply the term softer to bagpipes, just not very often. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Awesome. [00:29:07] Speaker A: Now we'll hear Peter perform two tunes on the bagpipe Terabus, said to have been used at the Battle of Flauden in 1513, and the flowers of the Forest, a Scottish folk tune and work of war poetry commemorating the defeat of the Scottish army and the death of James IV at the same battle. We contrast this with England, be glad, urging support for Henry VI in his 1513 war with France. [00:29:37] Speaker D: When Henry crossed over to France, he and his council forgot not the old prank of the Scots, which is always to invade England when the king is out. To avoid all doubts, the king appointed the elder Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey, to be his lieutenant against the said King of Scots if he fortuned to invade according to the old traitorous custom of his progenitors. [00:30:37] Speaker C: Sam. It's Sam. Sam. Pluck off by the heart. Help now, thy king, thy king. And take his paw. [00:32:46] Speaker D: And take his heart. [00:32:50] Speaker C: And take his heart against the Frenchman, the fearful height in the quarrel. [00:33:11] Speaker D: Of the church and in the right. [00:33:17] Speaker C: With spears and shears on goodly horses night borders to put them all to flight help now, thy king, thy king and take his part. [00:33:41] Speaker D: And take his. [00:33:42] Speaker E: Part. [00:33:45] Speaker C: And take his party. [00:34:00] Speaker B: Welcome back, Allison. [00:34:01] Speaker E: Thanks. [00:34:02] Speaker B: So, a few moments ago, you spoke about the Devonshire manuscript as a source that these women from Anne Boleyn's court were recording know, some of which might be sung. And one of the things that's so interesting in the program that you devise is this idea of contrafacta and really largely thinking about kind of reconstructing repertories and earlier versions of tunes that only show up in later sources. And I would love to hear you talk a little bit about what became a loot song in the context of this concert called Blame Not My Loot. [00:34:43] Speaker E: Yeah. So it's a pretty famous poem by Thomas Wyatt. It's recorded in the devitur manuscript. And Thomas Wyatt was in Boleyn's circles. He knew her personally and they were moving in circles together. [00:34:59] Speaker A: Besties. [00:35:00] Speaker E: Besties. Yeah. I believe that he was hoping that she would end up with him, but that did not happen. Anyway, so he wrote this poem, blame not my loot. Of course, one gets very excited by the title. There's a loot. It seems to imply some sort of musical performance could be involved, and the musical theme runs through the whole poem, so it fits music nicely. We think it was probably sung, as with many of these poems, there is a loot manuscript at the Folger Library which has a little tiny bit of music. It's basically one time through a ground bass, which is essentially a Pasamezo bass line, and it says above it, blame not my loot. There's no melody written. We don't know. What does that mean, other than that these chords somehow could have been associated with this piece. So essentially what I did is I took sort of the underlying melody line, sort of a tenor line, and I set the text to that. And it really works quite well. It fits the meter, actually, quite well. You barely have to do anything to make it all fit at the very end. It always has this little refrain, blame not my loot, what she says every time. And I just had to repeat a little bit of music to fit that in, which turns out to be very cute, actually. [00:36:24] Speaker B: It was very cute. [00:36:25] Speaker E: It's very charming. Yeah. So that's the story of Blame not my loot. [00:36:30] Speaker D: Blame not my loot for him, a sound of this all lack of wit. The loot is bound to give such tunes as Pleaseth me for my songs be so. What strange and speak such words as touch Thy change, blame not my spite asketh spite and changing change and false and faith must needs be known the fate so great the chaos are strange all the right it must abroad be blown Then since that by thine own desert My songs will tell how true thou art blame not my loan for though thou break my strings in spite with great distinct yet have I found out for thy sake strings for the. [00:38:10] Speaker C: String, my loot I care. [00:38:15] Speaker D: And if a chance this voice rhyme don't make me blush at any time. Blame not my. [00:38:34] Speaker B: There is one other really thrilling and fun moment in the program, which is when some seashanties come into play. And one thing that I learned from Peter Walker was while he sent a bunch of research into Elizabethan and early 17th century seafaring songs and seashanties, there's not a whole lot that we know from, say, Henry VI's time in contemporary with a Mary Rose. So where did that material come from? How did you think about sourcing or reconstructing that? [00:39:12] Speaker E: Yeah, that was a real struggle. I kind of left that to last because I kept thinking, I'll find the perfect source, and I kind of never did. So I finally was like, no, I'm just going to have to do this myself. So we know that seashanties were sung even a few centuries before this. There are some references in literature, but we have no music that we can point to and say, this is seashanty music. The earliest thing that we know I did include, which is haul out the bolin, which is at the end of the sea shanty section, and I gave it the longest amount of time. Apparently, we know that it's pretty old because the term bolin is an antiquated term and goes out of use in the 17th century. And a lot of people think it could have been actually in the time period of Henry VI. I did slightly rewrite it because it seemed to me like the melody that's sung today seemed like a harmony part, slightly in some places. So I sort of wrote something that seemed more like melodies at this time that tend to go down to the final at the end of the melody. And then we added that as, like, a harmony part when everyone sang. So the original melody that everyone knows now is still there. But then I wrote this other thing that seemed a bit more early to me. [00:40:32] Speaker B: And what about the early. The stuff at the beginning of that. [00:40:35] Speaker E: At the little set of beginning of the set? So all these texts that I put in there are straight from this complaint of Scotland, 1549. It's a fascinating text. Can't go into all of it, but I'll just tell you, there's a whole scene where they're describing ship getting ready for battle, and the narrator, who's telling you this story, tells you from the beginning, I don't know anything about ships, and I don't know what they're saying, but here's what I thought they said. And then there's some words that you're like, nobody knows what it is. So, like, poor Basa, Sarabasa. We don't know what this means. It could just be misspelled or misheard or something. There were some pretty international sets of people working on these ships, so it's likely that it could be somehow Spanish or Italian in origin. So when I was thinking about that and there's all this text that supposedly they're singing, all these mariners sailors are all singing, I was thinking about, okay, do I know anything about the sea and Spanish or Italian music? And I thought of Mateo Fletcher and Labamba, which is a famous polyphonic work from the 16th century. And he seems to be. It's an Encalada. It's a salad mixture. A mixture. And he's taking all these little tunes, which seem to be popular tunes, and this particular piece is about a storm at sea. And I thought, well, if anywhere, this could be a place that possibly some seashanty tunes might come from. So I took the texts from the complaint of Scotland, especially this whole section where there's some other language happening, words like Vera and Sarabasa and Capone. And I took some tunes from Mateo Fletcher's Labamba and put them together and created something, a hybrid, which could be a. I think it's. [00:42:36] Speaker B: I think it's so cool and quite brilliant. [00:42:38] Speaker E: Thanks. [00:42:39] Speaker B: Let's listen. [00:42:40] Speaker E: Okay. [00:42:41] Speaker G: I sat down to see the flowing of the foam where I looked far forth on the salt flood. There I beheld a galley prepared for war. Lying fast at anchor with her sails furled. The boson saw a white sail and then shouted with an oath, I see a great ship. Then the master whistled and bade the mariners lay the anchor cable to the cable stock. The mariners began to wind the cable, and first one cried, and then all the rest sang in that same tune. [00:43:15] Speaker C: Fear of dear. Agenda. [00:43:17] Speaker D: Gallons. [00:43:21] Speaker C: Wind, I say, wind. I saw gallons be of beer. Agenda. [00:43:32] Speaker D: Why night? [00:43:33] Speaker C: See him. Why night? Holland. [00:43:41] Speaker D: Halal and name. [00:43:42] Speaker C: Halal and name. Haul him up to us. Holy Moptero. [00:43:55] Speaker G: Then when the anchor was hauled up above the water, one mariner cried, and all the rest followed in that same. [00:44:02] Speaker C: Tune Kaboni Kaponehala Saraposa Kapunhala Then the. [00:44:21] Speaker G: Master whiskey fold Cut the lashings and let the manful and the topsoil fall haul down the luck close aboard Haul out the mainful sheet haul out the mainful bowlin One of the mariners began to haul and to cry and all the mariners answered in that same sound. [00:44:37] Speaker C: Haul out the ball in for the ball in the bowling haul heart of the boy, heart of the boy God send the weather God send the weather the boy and heart God send the weather over Ho. [00:45:19] Speaker D: Hard of the stiff sheep. [00:45:24] Speaker C: Heart of. [00:45:25] Speaker D: The stiff sheet the bow and heart. [00:45:29] Speaker C: Of sheep hard out. [00:45:41] Speaker B: Well, what has been the most surprising or rewarding aspect of creating, preparing and performing this project? The Marie Rose? [00:45:54] Speaker F: Well, I think the most rewarding aspect of it for me has been the opportunity to put historical music in a fuller context. We enjoy seeing pieces of art and artifacts in museums, in a case, but how much more exciting is it to see them in their natural environment, see them out being used? [00:46:20] Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the things that is wonderful about a production, and I think I'm going to use that term maybe instead of program. [00:46:27] Speaker F: Yes, good idea. [00:46:29] Speaker B: Like this is the way that we can give sound to what is otherwise functional music. In some cases, that doesn't normally suit itself terribly well to a concert program. A production like this really creates a beautiful context and a wonderful kind of envelope, not just to understand and appreciate the history and the art form, but also, I don't know, be more inclusive in that regard about what music it is and where it belongs and how it can excite the imagination. [00:47:10] Speaker F: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. And in a way, it's like the ship itself. I mean, this ship was a weapon, essentially a weapon and a status symbol. But when it sank, it sank with a whole bunch of people on board. It sank with instruments on board. That's something I've really enjoyed about the concert as well, is getting to hear your ducenne and taborpipe and Allison's replicas of the Mario's fiddles, and to know that this thing that has a big, overarching purpose is also just home for a lot of people, and being able to maybe bring a little bit of that sense to it as well, it gives more depth to the overall story. [00:47:55] Speaker B: Well, it has been such a pleasure to talk with you and to perform with you. Thank you so much, Peter, thank you. [00:48:01] Speaker F: So much for having me on. I'm happy to be a part of this. [00:48:05] Speaker B: Allison, it was so fantastic and wonderful to be a part of, to play a small part in the creation of the Mary Rose program that you devised for Trobar. And I wonder what was the most enjoyable or even maybe a little surprising part of the experience for you. [00:48:26] Speaker E: Well, it's hard to answer because I really enjoyed a lot of it, but I think just being able to tell a story, which was really kind of two stories, but telling two stories at once and figuring out ways to interweave them, I don't know. It was just interesting how much this time period came alive to me in a way that I hadn't really felt connected to it before. And not saying, know I love Henry VI, but just saying that, yeah, he's definitely a flawed character, but I also feel more connected to him as a person, as a real human than I ever would have before this. So it's become one of my favorite eras at this point, and I am ready for another project maybe in the future in this era, and I'll include all the stuff that I didn't get to do, like riddles and epigrams and all that fun. [00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for talking with me about the Mary Rose and for including me in the production. [00:49:31] Speaker E: We were so happy to have you had to have Dusan. We knew all along, and this is a Deborah project. [00:49:39] Speaker B: Thank you, Allison. Thanks, Deborah. [00:49:53] Speaker A: Tune In On Monday, December 11 as we premiere songs for Social justice, our Solanira episode recorded live in Cleveland. Special guests Countertenor Michael Walker and tenor Haytham Hadar share loot songs by John Dowland and John Daniel, African American spirituals and traditional Lebanese melodies that become vehicles for storytelling to probe themes of identity and representation, struggle and resilience, and community and belonging. Have you listened to Les De Lisa's other podcast? Music Meditations Music Meditations combines poetry and music to bring soul soothing and life affirming art into your day. Featuring classic and contemporary poetry by Northeast Ohio writers, along with curated performances from Les de Lisa's live Performance archives, each bite sized episode concludes with prompts for mindfulness or guided listening to listen search music meditations wherever you found this podcast. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Salon era. This episode was created by me, executive producer Deborah Nagy, Associate producer Shelby Yaman, and Hannah De Priest, our script writer and special projects Manager. Our guests were Alison Monroe and Peter Walker, and we featured performances by medieval ensemble Trobar. Support for Solanira is provided by the National Endowment for the Arts, Cuyahoga Arts and Culture, the Ohio Arts Council, and audience members like you. Special thanks to Kenneth and Lugine Bay, who sponsored this episode, and to Solanira's seasoned sponsors, Deborah Malmod, Tom and Marilyn McLaughlin, Greg Noson and Brendan Roode and Joseph Sopko and Betsy McIntyre. This episode featured musical performances of music from 15th and 16th century England by medieval ensemble Chobar, including Alison Monroe on fiddles and voice Elena Mullins Bailey, soprano and Hart Peter Walker, baritone and bagpipes Daniel Swenberg Wheat and Giturn Deborah Nagy, recorders, pipes and Ducenne and Alan Audi, percussion. A 1 hour film version of this episode is available on Salonira.org, where you can also get full performance details and learn more about the music and information shared in this and any episode. Please subscribe and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps the show.